Electric needle Valve?

[swestill]

Hi all.
I have been locking for a electric controld needle valve and wonder if any of you no where till find one.

The reason is till be able till control the orefies on my lm still from the ground cos its 3,5 meters up.

I have a solenoid valv at the outlet but want to be able till set the reflux speed at different amounts in the process manualy.

What i am locking for is a control motor on the valve that is adjusteble in procent at same amounts always. So for closed valv 0% and fully opend at 100% and adjusteble in betwen.

Is their a thinngy for this already ore does it need to be built?
I know Shifu was exprementing on a stepper motor and is curius if that whuld work..

So if anyone could point me in the right direction Ore build such a thing i whuld gladly pay for it.

Regards Swestill.

[swestill]

This is perfect for dephleg control as well and could be furter automated for still automation. Unfortently my programing/computer skills is in the stonage so theirs no point in me trying.

[ketel3]

As far as I know there are,at a huge price.
https://www.masterflex.com/i/cole-parmer-proportioning-solenoid-valve-1-4-od-0-30vdc-0-125/9865034

http://www.hanbayinc.com/en/m-series.html

http://www.autoclave.com/products/valve_actuators/electric_actuated_shutoff/index.html
Or make one yourself.
But all home distillers that started to make it themselves had huge problems according the end stop.
Further you need skills and machines to make the hardware that drives the valve,OR a 3 d printer.
Programming is hard to do.

so there are 2 options left, use the earc design, all you need a sensor 40 cm below output a  pid and a solenoid valve ....
or Edwin fantastic idea ,and you know what ,  it is more easy to make Arduino software and control it.

http://eparrot.org/index.php/topic,526.0.html

Or may be Shifu is willing to 3D- print you one.

[swestill]

E-arc is all ready in place . This is for changing the output by drawing heads and for stripping ore perhaps whisky. The sensor for the arc valve is placed 65 cm under the produkt outlet. I like having a big buffert when running vodka. Perhaps i can do this manualy by a wire ore simular but like the idea of a digital one so i can dail in the % .

[swestill]

The pump idea is acually cuite nice for controling a lm still and i already have a copple at home from my continious still. But i hate the sound from the small once. In my case it whuld only need a volt regulator and not something that needs programming.

[ketel3]

Yes you are right the peristalitic pumps make a bit noise but the testing on my column was great ,Edwin did a great job again,A  proffesional peristaltic pump placed  in a housing and it is silenced.
This configuration allows you to take of at exact the milli liters/hour you want is'nt that great .

I would be quit easy he told me to make it automatic,on the otherhand he said my colum 180 cm with 150 cm effective lengt and 30 cm for the reflux spiral could be made shorter IF the peristaltic fusil pump was installed like we did.
He said also why make it auto it is great already like this, and your colomn is even longer.

If you want very clean spirit add the fusil discharge to your column,you can do it also without a pump if you want ,a small valve will do.
The lost of alcohol was minimal and suprising low abv that was taken from below the colomn.
The product was very very clean as you smear fusils true the complete run,it is not much but has a dramatic effect on the quality,this was also proven during testing by the nose SHE is very good in determination of senses and even the last jar was good.

And yes 65 cm sound good for the sensor, I just gave a example in my case during testing the sensor was in the middle of the column.

[swestill]

I see no reason of revoving the tails at the bottom as im having a long column and a big buffert zone from the sensor. Iv been playing whit e-arc for 10 years and are more then happy whit my neutral spirits as almost everyone that tast it dont belive that its as strong as it is. Its acualy a problem now when becoming a leagal destiller.  The only problem i need to solv is to be able till change the orefies of the output to be able to more eazely regulate my still. The pump idea is grate but i whuld like to have the pump as near the autlet as possible to avoid smearing and that make it harder whit housing and such. Thats why im intrested in the stepper motor as i only want to have a way to remote the orefies from a distans.

[ketel3]

Ok I understand.
And the earc is a good system,thanks to you I got the info about it.
But it is on /off  and  automatic with a stepper  it is always exact what you want,and or possible to program.

Maybe check ali for a electronic valve ?

So you are buzy to become a legal distiller that is great news ,I hope you will be very succesfull 
A long learning proces and testing , so you can make good stuff for shure.

[swestill]

Yes im moving forward on the destillary plans. Been working 2 month now one the place to make it ready for all the rules and higer the roof so im making progress. Yes the e-arc is nice and i cant take any credit for it but iv learnd to tweek it along the way.

Im sure the take of for tails is a realy good system if you gott limited sealing but for me its not nessesary.

Been locking at Alibaba and found mostly one off systems and thats why i ask here. As said before i realy dont understand a bit about programing and nows from experians its no point in trying to learn it.

So if anyone is temted of do this im willing to pay for it and that could lead to more automation of stills like the i-still if that someone take it a step further.

[ketel3]

A good step would be to implement a eparrot as a start.
This gives you safety alarms,heatup information time,and coolwater alarm,venthole alarm.

As lot of people had problems programming and building Shifu has put together 2 choises:
1) complete working system included smt172 sensor for the output abv at 0,01 dgrs plug and play
2) all components into a box  and put all together yourself,but the advantage all is in the box.

For me the eparrot is a great invention of Edwin,and gives safety during distilling and heating up,further safety according to boiler pressure as that alarm is included also.

[swestill]

 Yes the e-parrot is grate and it whuld be super if the
alarm could be conected to the e-arc Valve to close the valv. If its possible i will for sure by one. The control system im running today is both controling the valves (upp to 3 valves but im only using one for arc and One for the water) and controling the heating elements. It shuts down when set broiler temp and reduces power after heatup .

[ketel3]

Who knows if Edwin has plans,but there is no more memory space right now.

Maybe a eparrot and a second one to control the valves.
A good idea is maybe to add a jar alarm.

May I asked how large is the kettle ?

[swestill]

The kettel is 220l. The heating sours is 3*6 kw.
My fuses is a bit smal but i can do the heat up and then ruduce the power to 9kw with out any problem. I'v orderd more power and is going to build a bigger still but for start im going to use this one.

I load it with low wine from my continious still so im able to produse around 150 liter of 40% vodka in one day. And i can tell for sure that is more then enough the first year.

My plan is to sell maybe 2000liters the first year ore so so im keeping my regular job.

[ShiFu]

A small needle valve with a stepper motor attached to it.
It sounds so easy but I couldn't quite get it to work.

I need to have another look at it because I really like the idea.
My first (piece of crap) 3D printer has been sitting in a corner for far too long, and with so many useful parts.

I'd think PID controlling the cooling water (to control your reflux rate) is a wonderful idea. And probably best if it was a "stand alone" Arduino unit.
There is way too much code needed for the PID sketch and there simply is no program space left on the eParrot.

If I remember correctly, the biggest problem I had was not being able to precisely close the needle valve.
If the valve closed even a tiny fraction past the stop then it would be too difficult for the motor to free it to move backwards.
But I was using a very tiny stepper motor at the time. Now I'm looking at those beefy NEMA 23 (I think that's the size?) motors, and lots of other hardware bits on that old 3D printer and getting ideas.

As far as I can tell, even when using limit switches to stop the valve from over-tightening, it would probably be best to set the limit switch so a little cooling water always flows. To truly close the valve is a very tricky thing. It is a lot easier to close a valve than it is to open it again if the valve has been torqued closed.

But it could be even easier with a low cost REX C-100 PID controller, if it could be interfaced to a DS18B20. Not sure that's possible or not.
Lots of choices when you're just thinking out loud. 

[ShiFu]

Ah yes, its coming back to me now.
I was using a really cheapo motor, I think they are used in some low end printers and toys.
Then upgraded to real, more powerful steppers. The cheap stepper driver boards (like the EasyDriver) were useless for me.
Just couldn't get enough torque from the steppers. I could easily stall the motor just by grabbing it with my hand.
Then upgraded to a driver like this one:


microStep driver.JPG (15.2 kB. 245x260 - viewed 753 times.)

Lots of power and was only using a 12V  1 Amp power supply. And No way I could stall that with just my hand!
The driver was about $20, I think.

The 3D printer uses (I think) NEMA 17 steppers and uses a driver I haven't used before. So maybe that's worth a look as well.
It does seem to be a powerful, and cheap, combination. Those little driver boards are about $2.


stepStick.JPG (14.23 kB. 215x205 - viewed 754 times.)

As for the valve, I use push connect valves. That just makes my life easier.


pushValve_isu12.JPG (12.09 kB. 257x204 - viewed 768 times.)

[ShiFu]

After spending the day testing the StepStick I can definitely say the microStep driver has it beat - hands down.
The microStep driver, while bigger and more expensive, has features that the StepStick just doesn't have.
Namely, the ability to select switch settings to limit or adjust the Amps that the stepper consumes.

The microStepper easily limits the power to the stepper while the StepStick was "wide open" and both the motor, driver and power supply were getiing uncomfortably hot. With the microStepper there was never a heat or power issue, just set the little switches to limit the power to either the stepper or from the power supply.

And also the micro-stepping settings feature on the microStepper driver is nothing short of wonderful.

The StepStick has micro-stepping if enabled on the more expensive carrier board, but they didn't quite work well in my trials.

For the money, and the extra features, the microStep driver is the best thing out there to power one stepper motor - and this is what we need - to control just one stepper motor.
After 2 hours of run time with the motor spinning 50% of the time and the rest of the time it was in the locked/hold position it was only warm - compared to hot with the other drivers after only a short time.

About $16 or so, I think, for the microStepper. Worth it!

I'm going to round off some costs because you or I could find better deals or we may need to pay some shipping...
Or we may even have some of these items in a junk box somewhere...

MicroStepper driver, about $20 USD (sorry, I still think in US dollars).
Small stepper motor, about $20 (but lots of good deals to be had online).
Arduino (not sure of the flavor yet so I'll guess $5).
12 Volt 1 Amp power supply (don't know yet, maybe $5?).

Up next will be the valve and the slide-mounting. That should be interesting.
Been looking at good things using 3D printer parts - namely C-strut and c-beam (especially the gantry).

Electric needle Valve?
c-strut1.JPG (59.4 kB. 350x248 - viewed 1303 times.)

Electric needle Valve?
c-strut.JPG (50.78 kB. 350x247 - viewed 1238 times.)

Electric needle Valve?
gantry.JPG (17.02 kB. 350x135 - viewed 1219 times.)


Notice I've said nothing about programming? That's another can of worms and I'm not ready to open that can just yet.

Then later (if we get that far) will come the enclosure, mounting hardware, limit switches, etc, etc...  For now, I think we have more than enough on our plates to work with.

For now, we need to crack that valve open when it is wrenched down and stuck tight. To do that we need the torque power that the microStepper can deliver.

[swestill]

It seems like i got you fired up agen Shifu 😀
The funny thing when i sercht the web was the first video i found was from you.

All thous parts i have no qlue about but its sound like you are on to something and i for sure belive that its better to by quallaty then crap.

If im lucky this will be you next gismo after you finisht the e parrot and can lead to more than what im asking for and soon you are an expert of still automation.

Give me a shout when/if you are ready to go and web figure something out .

[ShiFu]

Dug out some old parts and wiped them off for the video.

This shows the valve going from fully closed to fully open.

It has no "brains" yet. It simply turns the motor x number of times back and forth.
The limit switches are not even attached yet.

This big stepper motor may need to be downsized. But the next size down is much smaller. I'll need to see if it can deliver the necessary torque.

[ketel3]

Is that great again I'am impressed what you have build.
Now the bucket of worms to manage ,and you will ,so have fun 

[ShiFu]

Added two limit switches, a toggle switch, a LOT of wires and a little code.