Author Topic: Electric needle Valve? (Read 31572 times)

ShiFu · « **Reply #40 on:** November 26, 2018, 11:08:10 AM »

So far, the code is spread over 20 pages plus the main Arduino sketch, and needs two libraries installed.
On the Uno it consumes 31% of the program storage space and 47% of dynamic memory.
On the Mega, the same sketch uses only 3% of storage space and 11% of the memory.
Quite a bit of that was for the LCD display, buttons and the navigation menu.

Electric needle Valve?

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It has Heating Mode and Cooling Mode.
For the still, I'm sure we'd only ever use *Mc (cooling mode).
For a fermenter, we may need both. *Mc (add cold) to keep an active ferment from getting too hot, and *Mh (add heat) if ambient temperature is too low and you risk stalling the ferment.

So it may be possible to use the same PID unit for more than just the still. It could also serve to regulate and maintain fermenter temperatures.

Here is a quick two minute video. Sorry about the poor video quality, it seems the camera is another setting to adjust

I rushed through this video to keep the upload file size small. Sorry for that. Hopefully you get the idea.

The PID settings were selected to more quickly demonstrate the valve opening and closing.
And to effectively do that, the number of samples to take and average should have been closer to 5 instead of 25.

I'd say baby steps on this video also, and hopefully it will improve. It surely can't get worse.

ShiFu · « **Reply #41 on:** November 26, 2018, 06:38:51 PM »

I think this is a good start.
Too bad the video sucked. Trans-coding high definition iPhone vids to YouTube can be tricky. Especially when you pay the film crew $0.
I'd re-film it but I'm camera shy,... as most of us Famous Actors are

I'll film a new video after getting the PID unit setup on my still. And hopefully get some of the filming bugs worked out.

ketel3 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 26, 2018, 09:50:13 PM »

Each journey starts with the first step ( confusius I think )
Man you are walking I still crouwling.

ShiFu · « **Reply #43 on:** November 27, 2018, 10:25:00 PM »

Hard to do all of this all by myself.
I could really use a little help here.

This was a very big ask of me from the original post of this thread:

Quote from: swestill on November 03, 2018, 04:45:24 PM

... I have been locking for a electric controld needle valve and wonder if any of you no where till find one.

The reason is till be able till control the orefies on my lm still from the ground cos its 3,5 meters up.

I have a solenoid valv at the outlet but want to be able till set the reflux speed at different amounts in the process manualy.

What i am locking for is a control motor on the valve that is adjusteble in procent at same amounts always. So for closed valv 0% and fully opend at 100% and adjusteble in betwen.

Is their a thinngy for this already ore does it need to be built?
I know Shifu was exprementing on a stepper motor and is curius if that whuld work..

So if anyone could point me in the right direction Ore build such a thing i whuld gladly pay for it.

Regards Swestill.

It has been a very big effort to get this far. Hundreds of lines of code were purpose made to be Arduino compatible.

And with all of this effort and work and no feedback except from K3?

It seems hardly worth the effort.

ketel3 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 27, 2018, 10:31:57 PM »

I realy would like to anticipate,but I simply have not the skills yet.
AND,
As stated before work eats al my energy,and my airways are not helpfull so that eats the minimal energy I have left when I come home?

I have to fight till may,maybe than I have a look into the wonderfull world of programming.

For now even my plans for washes and fermenting are on hold,it is what it is.

ShiFu · « **Reply #45 on:** November 27, 2018, 11:00:36 PM »

So all of my efforts have been wasted?

An Arduino based PID and stepper motor controller has been wasted?

I honestly and truly hope not.

ketel3 · « **Reply #46 on:** November 27, 2018, 11:06:26 PM »

I afraid I'am not much of help to you Shifu,maybe Swestill can contribute or a other forum member ?

Your efforts are not wasted ,it will help to develope a sytem many distillers are looking for.

I would like a have a system that controls my outout for shure.

So keep walking ,it is wonderfull to see it build up from nothing,and how far you are already.

swestill · « **Reply #47 on:** November 28, 2018, 02:24:36 PM »

Im sorry that im not able to help in the programing area.

The projekt is not waist of time at all and i belive it is a verry god thing to have as a option for the e-parrot.

As i asked in the begining i was only locking for something to remote a needlevalv from a distans and this is developing to a cm automation whtch is wonderfull and if i can help in any way i am here.

So if you want me to describe what funktions needed for auto for different type of stills i will gladly make a post about that but as sad i have not a qlue how to make the remote as i want.

ShiFu · « **Reply #48 on:** November 28, 2018, 06:52:33 PM »

Today was a good day.
Got 15 liters of cheap 56% alcohol to charge the boiler.
Then completed the Uno PID build. So now I have 2 working units.
Setup the boiler which took most of the rest of the day because I had two more sensors to add.

I commandeered Her Majesty's cashing machine to use as a tabletop to spread out all the electronics on.

About then it started getting late but I did get to do a little testing.

It is so satisfying to see the needle valve open and close when the condensers need a bit of cooling water.

I'll be testing it all day tomorrow and, hopefully, be able to tune this thing.
It was overshooting instead of maintaining the SetPoint.
It sort of "learns" as it goes through each cycle but there was not enough time today to play with the P I and D settings.
Each of them, the P, I and D can be adjusted from 0 to 10, for example 3.6 or 5.2
Then you can set the number of Samples to average.
So there are almost limitless possibilities to adjusting the settings.

** Thanks guys for the encouraging words. It does help to know someone is still out there listening

swestill · « **Reply #49 on:** November 28, 2018, 07:11:39 PM »

Nice to hear you making progress.
Some days are less fun when getting stuck and some days are fantastic when you manage to solve all thous small things and things start to funktion the way you want.

Just say if i can contribute in any way and i will.

ketel3 · « **Reply #50 on:** November 28, 2018, 09:50:59 PM »

Wel well hope for some small movie

Her Majesty should handle the cam and shoot a buitiful presentation of the run ,and not only the kettele , I would like to see a little shot over the balcony.
Getting it opening and closing the valve is already great.

Cheap alcohol ,we do not have that here ...... it would cost here about $ 225.00

maybe even more.
That is one of the reasons I make it myself,but NOT the main reason as that is the fun.

I do not know what it will cost in Sweden ?
And what in China ?

swestill · « **Reply #51 on:** November 28, 2018, 11:17:54 PM »

Sweden is about 20 euro for 70cl vodka.

ketel3 · « **Reply #52 on:** November 28, 2018, 11:20:19 PM »

And this is stronger so it would be more expensive whooooow.

ShiFu · « **Reply #53 on:** November 29, 2018, 08:44:46 AM »

Electric needle Valve?

walmart booze.png (151.69 kB. 350x466 - viewed 624 times.)

Walmart, 5 liter bottle, 39.8 RMB (about $5.85 USD). 52% ABV.

Ran for about 3 hours today with mixed results.
Its obvious I don't have the sensors well placed in the condensers and also not in proper thermowells.

I was able to maintain the desired temperatures, somewhat.
Much of the overshoot problem is because of the poor placement of the sensors and that will be difficult for me to fix.

Electric needle Valve?

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Electric needle Valve?

tangled mess2.JPG (140.29 kB. 350x466 - viewed 638 times.)

I'll let the boiler cool down and add the alcohol that was collected back to the boiler and try again.

swestill · « **Reply #54 on:** November 29, 2018, 04:29:47 PM »

Nice setup.

What produkt are you aiming for?
If aezo neutral you whuld need one more packed part and have the sensor placed over your existing part in the middle. I whuld think that 30-50 cm off spp is enough as a buffer zone over the sensor.

If you have the ability to do so i belive you whill get a better output as it gives the system some time to adjust whitout contaiming your spirits.

So its maybe working already if you give the sensor some time to work.

When tails reach the condenser the produkt is already contaminatet thats why the needs for a buffert zone.

swestill · « **Reply #55 on:** November 29, 2018, 04:36:31 PM »

The tax for etanol is about 50 euro of 1l 100% etanol so for 1l 50% it's 25 euro only in taxes.

Swedish travell to germany to bye booze.
And we bye the Swedish booze for half the price there.

ShiFu · « **Reply #56 on:** November 29, 2018, 06:22:36 PM »

Quote from: swestill on November 29, 2018, 04:29:47 PM

... What produkt are you aiming for? ....

Long response coming at you so grab a beer and kick back....

~~~~~

Nope, Swestill, actually I'm not trying to collect usable product, this is only for testing the PID system.
The quality of the product, for now, has no meaning. I'm not really testing any product at this point, just testing the control system.
The short column gives me quicker feedback for the system.

All alcohol is returned to the boiler after each test. Plus a liter of water to insure my heating element always stays covered.
So far, 2.5 tests.
Got cut short on the last test because some breadboard wires started coming loose and everything went crazy. It was getting late so gave up for today.
I'll track down the faulty connections and start again tomorrow.

Breadboards are OK. They are not solid connections like soldering.
Perf boards are usually the next step. Solid connections because they are soldered but lots and lots (and lots) of wiring spaghetti, as K3 calls it

The best is a real Printed Circuit Board but we are not up to that stage yet.

Electric needle Valve?

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We have to get this working first before moving forward, and I noticed the limit switches were also a problem. The really cheap switches are working great but the more expensive limit switches are VERY difficult to adjust and to keep adjusted. Changing those may be at the top of my 'To Do List' for tomorrow.
I've already started designing and 3D printed parts to upgrade the limit switches on the Mega.

Electric needle Valve?

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```````````

As for the alcohol tax...
There is an old saying, "Everything is free, plus labor and tax".
What most folks don't see is the producer gets, say, $5 for a bottle of booze that he made.
He sells to a distributor who wants a cut but he also has to cover the producers taxes.
Now that bottle is $16 but the distributor only made $3. The other $8 was eaten by the government. Yes, the government is always first in the line to get paid.
We can't buy from a distributor. They only sell to big stores and big restaurants. So it is sold to the big stores for $16.
The store charges us $25 to $35. The restaurant charges $60 or more.
The guy that made the booze had to pay for making it, bottling it, and all the countless little things to get it in the distributor's hands.
Just like a farmer selling his vegetables, the farmer makes less than anyone else in the chain.

Every time that bottle changes hands it costs us more. That same $5 bottle is now a $35 to $60 price tag at the friendly store and smiling restaurant.

--- Sorry for the rant. But IT IS ALSO about the cost. As a home distiller visiting a liquor store what goes through your mind?
For me when visiting America - are you KIDDING ME!? $27 for 0.75 liter of cheap vodka?!?! Really??? I mean REALLY!??

I paid about $1.25 per liter (oh the inflation! I've always paid less than $1 per liter before) and Walmart and everyone downstream from them got a cut.
Is it good booze? NO! It is not.
But once or twice through a decent still and it is as neutral as a good neutral can get.

But for now this alcohol is only being used to test the automation system.

swestill · « **Reply #57 on:** November 29, 2018, 07:31:09 PM »

Yes it's more tax in the bottles as the tax i talked about is what the distiller / importer has to pay for the alcohol for making it. Then he pay tax for the profits he makes as his byers. Then theirs the vat thats allsow a tax. So even if his alcohol gets stolen he has to pay the tax for the produkt.

ShiFu · « **Reply #58 on:** November 29, 2018, 08:31:36 PM »

Its a bit off-topic as we are discussing still automation... but...

I had the chance to visit with a big shot distributor here in China a few years ago. He gets his booze from one of the few MEGA FACTORIES and vends it to his "stores".
In truth, I was not allowed to visit the mega factory. No one is allowed unless you are Mega important.
So some of this cannot be verified. It was a lot of work and a lot of luck to get face time with the distributor at his warehouse.

The warehouse was full of huge plastic "totes". That's what we call the big cubes that are forklift-able. Usually 500 to 1000 liters each.
Seems being a "factory distributor" is like being able to print money. He has a territory and every store in that territory has to buy from him.
What a sweet deal that is!
And his territory was huge, many hundreds of stores and mom-and-pop operations and restaurants were locked in and he was THE ONLY middleman between them and the Mega Factory.

We spent the day together and I was very impressed by the scope of his operation. And even more impressed by him, he was always moving with 20 different things going on but still had the time to spend and answer my many questions.

And since I bought really great booze in Yangzhou where I lived, from one of the many "stores" that he managed from Nanjing, at a bargain price and yet he still made a killing.... well, what can I say... when you are part of a supply chain like that you must be on a good thing.

Just old memories and random thoughts as I explored distilling in China.

ketel3 · « **Reply #59 on:** November 29, 2018, 09:54:36 PM »

The next step was set,ok maybe not the 100% result ....but it was tested ,that is a big step forward ,as a test in real setup is great.
I like all the stuff laying around as it shows how much work it is,a enclosure with a led and a connector shows nothing ,this shows the real thing,and you did fine for the first test.
Doint forget you are designer enigneer programmer builder and distiller that are quit some skills to manage.

I could not believe my eyes the price for 5 liters is unbelieveable,and on the other hand the price in Sweden is the oposite,and the reason many people there make their own booze.

Ok back to buissiness ,it is difficult according to the sensors,I can understand you do not want to drill into such a fine setup ,maybe you can use the system Edwin wrote about he insetted a small stanless steel pipe into the colum for his peristaltic pump ,maybe you can do so for the sensor ?

Otherwise you have to drill and put in the hole a silicon stopper , in the middle hole for the sensor,so you do not have to weld ,and you can close the hole with a stopper in case it is unused.

I drilled a hole of 10 mm and put in a silicon stopper of 12mm it is absolutely ok and no leaks at all.

I hope the next test will be ok and that the controller does what it should do.
Cant wait for more