Author Topic: Cleaning the Off Flavors (Read 24070 times)

ShiFu · « **on:** August 11, 2016, 06:35:02 AM »

I made a tomato paste wash but could not control the fermentation temperature. It is always HOT here and only our bedroom has air conditioning.
The temperature of the wash was at or slightly above 30C and even when moved to the bedroom it was difficult to bring the 50 liter wash to 25C or less.
The ferment was finished in about 4 days so I distilled it using 7 bubble plates. The distillate tasted bad (hard to describe but maybe something like metallic or rotten and with a mediciney bouquet of vitamin tablet and puke).

So... I set up the still with SPP instead of plates and ran it through the still again. An improvement but the distillate is still not to my liking. The Off Flavors are still there but not as strong.

Sodium Bicarbonate has been recommended to fix this and I've had some success with it many years ago. The particulars, and dosage rates, are now lost to me.
Has anyone here had any luck fixing a pukey distillate with baking soda and if so do you have ideas about how much to use?

I plan on putting the entire collection (about 5 liters of ~95%) in a large jug and tossing in a handful of bicarb, let sit for a couple of days and re-distill. Any suggestions?

Eucyblues · « **Reply #1 on:** August 11, 2016, 07:07:34 AM »

Not usually added to finished spirits - usually to the wash/low wines

Some info here:http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13786

Can you get any carbon?? or charcoal ?? - if not you could make your own - won't be activated but will help - I've tried home fired charcoal and it works to a reasonable degree provided the base wood is not resinous - worth a try anyway - just burn the crap out of it and then boil it until it has only steam in the pot

ShiFu · « **Reply #2 on:** August 11, 2016, 07:23:19 AM »

Quote from: Eucyblues on August 11, 2016, 07:07:34 AM

Not usually added to finished spirits - usually to the wash/low wines

At this point I'm declaring the whole lot to be low wines/high wines and needing to be distilled again.
Even the hearts cut has an unacceptable taint.

You are right, activated carbon might be my friend and I happen to have a nice size stash of it.

Any idea how much bicarb to add per liter, at what proof and for how long?

law-of-ohms · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2016, 08:58:48 AM »

1 week and a fist full.

Eucyblues · « **Reply #4 on:** August 11, 2016, 02:09:06 PM »

Nothing like a good ol' rule of thumb

If you have a pH meter you could check as you add and stop at pH 6 - However, I think that may take a barrowload - there is a sheet on the excel file I uploaded previously which does some calcs for a rum wash if you wanted to muck around -

Personally - I think a fist full for a week sounds like a good start

stillwater · « **Reply #5 on:** August 11, 2016, 02:12:45 PM »

Hi ShiFu

I have this link about Deacidification Techniques in case it has any baring on the issue.

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/deacid.htm

ketel3 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 11, 2016, 06:24:29 PM »

Active charcoal is the way to go I think.
I know someone in my area who tried the backing soda trick but had no great result.

Reading at the start of this topic and your explanation for the reason of this taste I'am curious what kind of sugar you have used?

Maybe the reason is not the temperature allone,if it was just sugar and not inverted sugar there may be the problem.
Is this the first time you had this problem ?

law-of-ohms · « **Reply #7 on:** August 12, 2016, 03:41:07 AM »

Awesome link Stillwater!

More scientific then my method.

Acid on one end of the run, now for the high organic oils on the other end!

I have used potassium potassium permanganate for a further week after the sodium bicarbonate treatment.

Here is a list of FDA approved additives for distilling...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/24.247

and here is one about s02 reduction in brandy

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jib.100/pdf

ShiFu · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2016, 05:45:29 AM »

Thanks guys, especially Stillwater for the excellent link. "Astringency" was the descriptive word I was looking for.

Ketel3, I did take the step of inverting the sugar. I used 1/2 of the water, all of the sugar and the juice of 2 lemons (citric acid) and brought it to a simmer. After more than 1/2 hour of "cooking" the tomato paste was stirred in and it was added to the fermenter and topped to the 50L mark with cool water.

Bicarb is on order and should arrive tomorrow. We'll see if this works by adding a 1/2 Kg to some water and then to the "high wines". Then distill again. If still not corrected it will get carbon treatment.

I personally think the high ferment temperature caused the off-flavors but other factors may have contributed.

It is possible that I stressed the yeast in other ways. 10Kg of sugar for a 50 liter wash does not sound excessive but at this high ambient temperature it is entirely possible the sugar should have been less than 10Kg.
An old distilling friend has a rule of thumb of "one pound of sugar per gallon of water". That works out to be:
50L = 12.5 G
10Kg = 22 pounds
so.... 12.5 gallons (50L) water requires 12.5 pounds (5.64Kg) of sugar. Since that is about twice the sugar as my friend's rule then I may have stressed the yeast.
I did not take a SG (starting specific gravity hydrometer reading) because of the high solids content of the tomato paste.

I am thankful that this happened with a cheap and easy sugar wash instead of the more difficult all-grain mash that will happen soon. I will be more particular about the ferment temperature in the future and cut back on the amount of added sugar.

Eucyblues · « **Reply #9 on:** August 12, 2016, 01:02:21 PM »

Quote from: ShiFu on August 12, 2016, 05:45:29 AM

I am thankful that this happened with a cheap and easy sugar wash instead of the more difficult all-grain mash that will happen soon. I will be more particular about the ferment temperature in the future and cut back on the amount of added sugar.

HEY ShiFu - If you're thinking of adding sugar to your malt wash - RESIST!! no added sugar !! - you want to be able to claim a genuine all malt whisky - mash it well and you won't need any sugar - keep the faith!

ketel3 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 12, 2016, 01:29:51 PM »

Shifu ,maybe just bad luck.
That amount of sugar would bring you around 11% not sky high,so it must be the temperature as you said before,now I'am interested was it the ferment temperature or the cooling down In your opinion?

Mabe next time trowe in some frozen bottels of water

ones the ferment is over?

ShiFu · « **Reply #11 on:** August 12, 2016, 05:58:59 PM »

@Eucy, all-grain is all grain, no sugar added. I'd resist any additives like Dry Malt Extract, if I had any.

@ketel3, 50L ferment started off at 30C. My mains water and ambient temperature is very close to 30C.
As the ferment kicked in to high gear, the temperature inside the fermenter went up to almost 35 because of the yeast activity. In a panic I moved the fermenter to our air conditioned bedroom and put wet towels on it trying to lower the temperature. It was very sluggish to respond and only wanted to lower the ferment temperature after the "heavy" yeast activity had subsided.

The last two days in the fermenter I was noting ~25C or less but the damage had already been done.
I've read before where folks in the tropics favor highly flavored drinks (rum and the like) because getting a clean neutral spirit was really hard for them. I'm only now starting to appreciate their fermenting temperature problem.

The tiny loss of 10Kg of sugar is not hard to take should I tip it all down the drain. But maybe I can learn a thing or two and fix it before taking that last and drastic step. Bicarb to arrive tomorrow or the next day and we still have the activated carbon trick to play if needed.

Eucyblues · « **Reply #12 on:** August 12, 2016, 06:27:30 PM »

An old chest freezer and an STC-1000 would be welcome I bet

ShiFu · « **Reply #13 on:** August 12, 2016, 07:00:33 PM »

Yes it would!
Before moving to Shenzhen it was all I could do to stay warm. Layers of clothing to survive. Now I battle the heat.
My 50L stainless conical fermenter needs some sort of climate control. As do I !!
It ain't pretty but mostly I don underwear only all day (sorry for the mental picture).

Traveling from north to south China every few months caused me to carry a large bag to remove layers of clothing and put them in the bag when going south. Reverse that when going back north. Now that we live in the south I no longer need the bag or clothes or anything except COLD Air Conditioning.

I swear I ain't never happy

... complain when its cold and complain when its hot...

ketel3 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 12, 2016, 07:44:22 PM »

Yep Shifu,learning from it,Eucyblues given tip is the way to go in future

if possible.
I'am very interested how your test will go with the bicarp.
Overhere most of the time we need a heat element directly into the wash or a heated insulated box to ferment

Is it the whole year that hot where you live ?

ShiFu · « **Reply #15 on:** August 12, 2016, 08:12:34 PM »

Yes, ketel3, it is so hot all year here. We have no winter at all - it never freezes here and vegetables grow 365 days a year unless the heat kills them.
It is said that there is one or two cool months but we haven't been here long enough yet to know for sure.

I was like you before we moved here, almost always too cold. Now it is too hot for me and the yeast.

The dream is to have TWO houses. One for summer and one for winter. Ha!!

YHB · « **Reply #16 on:** August 12, 2016, 08:36:54 PM »

Shifu,

I think you have helped solve one of my dilema's - that is whether to give up distillation or not.

Last winter I made some truly wonderful drinks that I really enjoyed and am proud of. I developed a routine of 4kg of sugar per batch (21 Litres) and pitched the yeast at sub 25 degrees, letting the thermostatically controlled heater bring it up to the preset temperature of 25 degrees.

One thing that I found was that during the stripping run a sample taken at 42% was just so good, I now have an alarm on the parrot when in stripping mode to remind me to take a sample at that strength.

It was so straightforward and the results were so good I did a campaign of 6 washes to build up stock.

I believed that the improvement was down to my improved ability to make cuts and let other things slide.

I have the willpower of a fly on * and as the campaign developed I put more sugar in and was very impatient when it came to pitching the yeast and it went in at anything in the mid 30's. My fermenter has lots and lots of insulation and it took forever for the temperature to subside and during the first mad ferment it often reached the high 30's.

Sampling the strips at 42% they were not good, I blamed everything from a change of brand of AllBran to out of date Yeast. Of course I never once considered it was my bad housekeeping and fermentation techniques.

But reading your description " (hard to describe but maybe something like metallic or rotten and with a mediciney bouquet of vitamin tablet and puke) " this rang a few bells except mine tastes as though it has a good measure of varnish remover added. I have checked my notes and I believe that you are on to something.

Before I throw in the towel and take a trip to the scrap yard I will go back to basics. 4 kg per batch and pitch at 20 degrees and let the thermostat / yeast bring the wash up to temp.

ketel3 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2016, 09:26:56 PM »

Did we not all have such experiance,nice fruit and lot of work and a poor result,or nice batch of rye but hard taste and the rye bread batch was even better ?

Or a batch that had some bitterness, and you doint know why,but how nice if it all comes together and you are supprised what you have made.

The post of Yhb clarifys the case I think,but on the other hand the question is was it just the temperature or the perfect temperature for a infection?
I see forward to your test with bicarp ,I have 20 kilo's of it as I use it sometimes for my fish pond.

stillwater · « **Reply #18 on:** August 13, 2016, 03:26:59 AM »

Quote

An old chest freezer and an STC-1000 would be welcome I bet

I've put aside money for a 519L Chest Freezer (Haier) to go with the STC-1000.
Just gotta check it can take the height of my fermenter barrels; and my shed is still a work in progress.

Earlier discussions with LoO has me taking ferment temp control more seriously.

law-of-ohms · « **Reply #19 on:** August 13, 2016, 06:57:20 AM »

slow and steady wins the race.

Or you can ferment in 3-4days, pot still, put it into an oak barrel for 20years to make drinkable.