Author Topic: Cleaning the Off Flavors  (Read 24073 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline law-of-ohms

  • Pro
  • Posts: 265
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2016, 03:58:11 AM »
I added 200ml of %3 hydrogen peroxide to about 100L of low  low wines. it turned milk white.

Its clear again this morning with what looks like a lot of scum floating on top. I wonder if either my boiler was dirty and the peroxide cleaned it, or if it oxidized some oils and coagulated them.

We need an industrial chemist.

We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.

Offline Myles

  • Pro
  • Posts: 253
  • Souvenirs from Mali, 1980
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2016, 10:20:47 AM »
Just one question folks, and sorry if it is in here and I already missed it.

If you are doing all this are you also Hydro-separating the low wines?If you are aiming for ultra pure neutral then to me at least it make sense to be selective with what you put into the boiler. You can split off SOME of the heads and tails before charging the boiler.

You also need to be careful with the ABV of your low wines and keep them below 40% in this application. Above 40% and you start to run into the issue that the heads and tails become soluble in the ethanol which makes it even harder to split them off.

Offline ShiFu

  • eParrot.org
  • Admin
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2016, 10:33:17 AM »
Myles, can you explain more about Hydro-separating? 
law-of-ohms tried to explain it to me about a year ago and I called BS.

Good point on the ABV of the boiler charge. 
Stay calm and follow the screaming people.

Offline Eucyblues

  • Posts: 774
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2016, 12:15:44 PM »
Butting in here as Myles is not on-line

The process involves dilution of the low wines to below 30% - say about 27 or so - letting stand for 3+ days then siphon the middle third out and only use that - add to the remaining low wines and repaet the process - after I don't know how many passes, I guess the upper and lower portions need to be chucked out

Quote from "Whisky: Technology, Production and Marketing"

Alcoholic strength of the charge of combined foreshots, feints and low
wines should not exceed 30 per cent ABV; strengths in excess of this lead to
blank runs, when the demisting test fails to indicate potable spirit. In such
circumstances the demisting test protects the previously collected potable
charges from an influx of non-potable spirit, which, with its high concentrations
of higher fatty acid esters and long chain saturated carboxylic acids,
would impart a ‘feinty’ note to the spirit. The demisting test should always
be available, even if foreshots are collected on a timed basis.
Low wines and feints receivers and chargers act as separating vessels. The
last runnings of a spirit distillation contain the heavy oils or esters that are not
readily soluble in water. Such oils have an affinity for alcohol, especially at
high strength. At a strength of less than 30 per cent ABV these compounds
undergo a phase separation, where the esters float on top of the aqueous layer
while a small proportion are dissolved in the aqueous layer. If the concentration
of alcohol is allowed to exceed 30 per cent ABV, these floating surface oils
migrate into the higher alcoholic strength aqueous layer, being completely
dissolved. This effect eventually impacts not only on the demisting test, but
also on the whole spirit distillation – potable spirit cannot be collected as the
charge of low wines and feints contains a disproportionate concentration of
heavy oils, making it impossible to have a turbidity-free demisting test result.
With low wines and feints charges at less than 30 per cent ABV, it is still
possible to attract distillation problems. Presentation of the floating surface
layer of heavy oils or higher fatty acid esters as a charge to the still (by
completely emptying the contents of the charger into the still) will result in
an episode when the collection of potable spirit (as determined by the demisting
test) is unachievable. The whole spirit distillation system will have been
contaminated by these esters, and it can take several distillations before satisfactory spirit is again obtained.

To avoid such scenarios, when the low wines and feints appear to be
approaching higher strengths (or have even reached this situation) the charge
can be diluted with water, aiming for a combined strength of less than 30 per
cent ABV and thus stimulating hydroseparation. The surface phase must not
be allowed to enter the spirit still on charging.

Adherence to these principles will ensure a consistent product, both on nose
and analysis. The low wines and feints components reach a steady concentration
state, maintaining equilibrium during subsequent distillations. 

Offline Myles

  • Pro
  • Posts: 253
  • Souvenirs from Mali, 1980
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2016, 12:53:01 PM »
Butting in here as Myles is not on-line

Thanks EB. This  is traditionally a pot distillers practice that uses the different densities of the 3 fractions as an aid to getting a cleaner product. It only PARTIALLY works as there is always some mixing. Over time the volume of the lighter and heavier components accumulates and can then be disposed of or re-used in other products as required.

Harry wrote an article on it which unfortunately I did not keep a copy of, and I don't think his library is available any more. However this is one of Harry's illustrations.

Harry's Hydro-separator image.pngCleaning the Off Flavors
* Harry's Hydro-separator image.png (128.46 kB. 350x236 - viewed 1415 times.)

Offline ketel3

  • Admin
  • Posts: 1377
  • Eparrot.org
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2016, 01:29:05 PM »
Around here some people have tried hydro separation.....no one with great succes,maybe coused by the small quantitys we work with.

Ok for a batch with a off taste or a mistake ,we ,can try to save the batch,with the above mentioned steps,but our goal should be to make a good product in the first place.  /barman

Better bad weather than no weather

Offline ShiFu

  • eParrot.org
  • Admin
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2016, 06:06:53 AM »
What is "the demisting test"?

In Harry's (always great) drawing, I think I'd have a lot of trouble determining the "cuts" without some kind of visual clue.
Stay calm and follow the screaming people.

Offline Eucyblues

  • Posts: 774
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2016, 07:20:41 AM »

Offline Myles

  • Pro
  • Posts: 253
  • Souvenirs from Mali, 1980
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2016, 11:48:32 AM »
In Harry's (always great) drawing, I think I'd have a lot of trouble determining the "cuts" without some kind of visual clue.

You can actually see the layers. The top one is an oily shimmer, but in practice if the volumes used are big enough you can almost guarantee that you are only charging the boiler from the middle layer. It does work better with bigger volumes, you want the middle layer to be more than your boiler charge.

Offline law-of-ohms

  • Pro
  • Posts: 265
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2016, 12:23:50 PM »
I wonder what would happen with this mix...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Aquarium-Carbon-Zeolite-Mix-1kg-10kg-Fish-Tank-Canister-Filter-Media/131414992647

Activated carbon AND Zeolite.

We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.

Offline ShiFu

  • eParrot.org
  • Admin
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2016, 12:26:22 PM »
Naa, just give me a good packed column and I can do a quite reasonable job of making the cuts. 
Or almost any still would seem to do a better job than hydro separation but to each his own.   

The bicarb has done a good job of removing the taint caused by stressed yeast. 
And law-of-ohms is not the first to mention dosing with hydrogen peroxide - though that's something I've never tried. 

I'm not knocking hydro separation. I just think, for me, using a stripping still to collect enough low wines, then a pot still to make the broad cuts and finally, if vodka is desired, a packed column.  More precise and prone to less error. Getting good vodka with a single pass from wash is really kind of hard to do. The "keeper" cut is just so small! 

And as I was about to click on the Post button I get this...

You can actually see the layers. The top one is an oily shimmer, but in practice if the volumes used are big enough you can almost guarantee that you are only charging the boiler from the middle layer. It does work better with bigger volumes, you want the middle layer to be more than your boiler charge.
 

Well... if I can see the layers then I've been missing the boat for a long time.
Have you actually used this, and if so, any pictures?
I used to be able to get 15L glass jugs drilled with holes before we moved, now it would be much harder to get them.

The bottoms (tails) doesn't really interest me but the top layer (heads?) I'd probably put into faints for recycling with a pack column. Yes? 
Stay calm and follow the screaming people.

Offline ShiFu

  • eParrot.org
  • Admin
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2016, 12:29:42 PM »
I wonder what would happen with this mix...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Aquarium-Carbon-Zeolite-Mix-1kg-10kg-Fish-Tank-Canister-Filter-Media/131414992647

Activated carbon AND Zeolite.

Interesting.  I toyed with zeolite years ago but never thought to combine it with activated carbon.
You may be on to something new, Lawman, for carbon filtering. 
Stay calm and follow the screaming people.

Offline Myles

  • Pro
  • Posts: 253
  • Souvenirs from Mali, 1980
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2016, 01:56:48 PM »
Remember ShiFu this hydro-separation is done mostly with collected feints although it can be done on low wines.
In fact diluting the low wines to below 27% and allowing to settle before charging a pot still for a spirit run is recommended practice. Probably because it was traditional to use blended boiler charges with feints mixed into the low wines for the pot still.

However, for neutral or vodka, if you keep accumulating (and diluting) the heads and tails from previous spirit runs, and then only use the middle section of this to charge the boiler for a spirit run, over time the 3 layers get bigger. The top layer ends up looking like fuel on water. I used to do this early on when I was using the packed column a lot, but it got relegated to only used occasionally, and it wasn't really worth the effort.

If you make a lot of vodka - and mostly from accumulated feints from previous runs - then it might be worth giving it a go. It is a limited application, and probably is only useful to folks consistently re-cycling feints.

Offline law-of-ohms

  • Pro
  • Posts: 265
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2016, 05:46:42 PM »
I must say, Hydrogen peroxide was a huge success,

I need other people willing to experiment with it.

I did a spirit run on a %8-10 boiler charge, about 100L, took off ~9L at %90, turned off deflag and took another 1-2L down to %40.

I would drink the spirit coming off at %40, no detectable tails!


We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.

Offline Zuliero

  • Posts: 59
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2016, 02:19:58 PM »
So, would you treat the spirit run with bicarb + peroxide, or first do a run with bicarb to treat the heads, collect everything else, and then do a second run with peroxide to take care of the tails?

Offline ShiFu

  • eParrot.org
  • Admin
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2016, 06:03:40 AM »
I wouldn't treat the wash and wouldn't treat the finished spirit. Only treat the low wines.
If a finished spirit is not acceptable then I'd treat it and re-distill it. 

... then do a second run with peroxide to take care of the tails?

Great idea! I have jugs of feints that are labeled "Recycle". That would be perfect to treat before adding back to the boiler... either as a "boost" to another spirit run or as an "All Feints" run if there was enough to half fill the boiler. 
Stay calm and follow the screaming people.

Offline Zuliero

  • Posts: 59
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2016, 07:07:29 PM »
I agree about treating the low wines and not the wash. As I recall reading LoO used bicarb on a pretty substantial stash of wine, I was wondering if you can take care of both ends of the spectrum simultaneously, or if you need to use those chemicals separately (i.e. do they neutralize themselves when used together)?

Offline law-of-ohms

  • Pro
  • Posts: 265
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2016, 02:57:46 AM »
I actually treated the wash of red wine with bicarb it was that bad.

It fizzed like an frothed up like a high school science experimental volcano there was so much acid in it. I added bicarb until it stopped fizzing. then left it for a few days.

The hydrogen peroxide is the best kept secret in vodka making.
We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.

Offline Zuliero

  • Posts: 59
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2016, 01:06:47 PM »
Thanks for sharing LoO  :) I assume you removed the "floating scum" before the run?  As there seems to be no information on the use of peroxide, may I ask you how did you came to the dosage you tried for this experiment?

Offline law-of-ohms

  • Pro
  • Posts: 265
Re: Cleaning the Off Flavors
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2016, 06:19:35 AM »
Dosage is easy to calculate:-

First drink:-

2 beers,
3 UJSM n coke

Look at bottle, if able, remove lid and pour entire amount into low wines.... Toss empty bottle over one shoulder and say 'that'll do it'

. No scum not removed,


Now Seriously.
Also thinking about it two birds with one stone here:-

Sodium Percarbonate (I use this as a cleaner for my mash containers)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate

Dissolved in water, it yields a mixture of hydrogen peroxide (which eventually decomposes to water and oxygen) and sodium carbonate ("soda ash").

http://www.hydrogenlink.com/oxygengeneration

This is defiantly my next experiment.
We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.