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Offline ketel3

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cuts
« on: March 10, 2017, 08:28:39 PM »
Cuts,ok I know one can not give a recepy useable for all kind of stills all kind of washes and so on and so on.

But I would like to know how do you make your cuts ?  by percentage or by tasting and smell.

For beginners there is a guide line :
3% fores
17% heads
57% hearts
23% tails

But depending on the kind of still  and wash this figures can vary a lot?

Ok before the run I do a quic calculation and use above mentioned  figures as a guideline,always start with small yars and ones far into the hearts I switch to large yars and at the end small yars again.

The yars stay open 1 or 2 days to breath.
The final cuts I do after deluting to 30% 40% max , first I go from the hearts up to the heads I decide to make the cut at the point it starts with a burning mouth feeling,dipping a finger into the glas and tast will shows perfectly where that point is,I find this more easy as working on smell only.
The same for the tails , starting at the hearts and do the tasting till there is a off taste or dog smell.
In case I have any doubt mrs K3 makes the final decission  :)

Due to the kind of still I use my heads and tails are smaller than the figures used as a guide line.


I like to hear about your way of doing the cuts,or are we all using the same procedure.




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Offline YHB

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Re: cuts
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2017, 09:30:50 PM »
I am still confused by these figures and always have been.

17% of what ?

Take off? or percentage of alcohol?

Are these for a pot still? or a reflux still ?

With a pot still I can never get anywhere near 50% of the alcohol?

The picture below is a typical result for me with a Pot Still, I work on YHB's 1/3 rule.

1/3rd of the Alcohol goes down the toilet. 1/3rd gets drunk and the last 1/3rd which is cleanish feints, goes into the next spirit run.

This may not be very economical the first time around but the subsequent spirit runs of 2/3rds new spirits 1/3rd feints is much better economics.

The only thing I do extra is; when I have sorted out the cuts that I think I will keep, I take a shot out of each cut dilute the resulting blend to 40%, mix a shot add coke and drink it. If it is not to my liking back to the cutting bench. 

Cuts.jpgcuts
* Cuts.jpg (132.68 kB. 350x158 - viewed 1274 times.)
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Offline ketel3

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Re: cuts
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2017, 10:15:10 PM »
I am still confused by these figures and always have been.

17% of what ?

Take off? or percentage of alcohol?

Are these for a pot still? or a reflux still ?

With a pot still I can never get anywhere near 50% of the alcohol?

The picture below is a typical result for me with a Pot Still, I work on YHB's 1/3 rule.

1/3rd of the Alcohol goes down the toilet. 1/3rd gets drunk and the last 1/3rd which is cleanish feints, goes into the next spirit run.

This may not be very economical the first time around but the subsequent spirit runs of 2/3rds new spirits 1/3rd feints is much better economics.

The only thing I do extra is; when I have sorted out the cuts that I think I will keep, I take a shot out of each cut dilute the resulting blend to 40%, mix a shot add coke and drink it. If it is not to my liking back to the cutting bench. 

Cuts.jpgcuts
* Cuts.jpg (132.68 kB. 350x158 - viewed 1274 times.)

Yes I know the more you read the more questions  occure ,exactly why I posted this,not for the old gang but for possible newcomers and to learn,from any reactions.
17 % off what  ........ ok all figures related to 100% alc  and percentage of alc present ,so some conversion to do first.
What kind of still ..... well you can use it as a guideline to both potstill and reflux still but its not acurate at all  I ONLY use it as indication as I do not believe in exact figures according to cuts.
I make my cuts on taste and smell not on figures.

Do you base your end product only on the 1/3 rule ? that is for shore a guideline for a smooth drink,but sometimes you want some late heads and or early tails into it for complexity , off course only if you make a tasty drink and not a neutral.
To understand your figures better ,how large was the batch?

 Fine explaning figures you posted  :)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 10:28:54 PM by ketel3 »
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Offline YHB

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Re: cuts
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 12:10:35 AM »

To understand your figures better ,how large was the batch?

 Fine explaning figures you posted  :)

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Offline ShiFu

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Re: cuts
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 11:02:55 AM »
I've always made cuts like K3 explained.
I discard the first jar, it is never any good.
Then collect until it begins to smell bad (tails), then stop distilling. Maybe wasteful but I can't tolerate tails.
Let it breathe a few days to drive off some of the off flavors and smells.

Starting with the middle jar I taste a bit of every jar, watered down to about 25 to 30%, and decide if it goes into the big jug or not.
If it does not make it to the big jug it gets recycled into the next batch.
Its OK to be a little brutal when deciding what are the keepers and what gets recycled.
Home distilled booze is so cheap there is no need to be greedy and ruin the jug with too much heads or tails.

As long as it tastes and smells good to you then you did it right.
If you take a sip and one eye closes and you make face like when you step in dog pile then you really need to work on your cuts  :)

A pot still has to be the most difficult to judge the cuts. It is a long, slow smear from heads to hearts to tails.
Any kind of still that works on reflux, a packed column or bubble plate still, will concentrate the fractions and produce a more pronounced transition.
And they can give a few indicators. A reflux still that has sight glasses will show you that tails are about to start when the bottom glass begins to get foggy or when there is a sudden spike up in vapor temperature.
These are helpful indicators. Yet your best sensors are still your nose and tongue.

And for all of the above, you have to also consider the effects that aging has on the product.
If you plan to drink it young then it needs to be really clean - almost no heads or tails.
If you plan to age if for some years in wooden barrels then the booze will benefit greatly from a hefty dose of heads and tails, as that is where most of the flavor is. And why age booze for years unless it was for the flavor?

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Offline ketel3

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Re: cuts
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 01:40:58 PM »
 The way Yhb does his cuts on his potstill  is a perfect guideline especialy for beginners a very good starting point,this is supported by Shifu comments I agree a potstill is more complicated to do it right.
It is a leraning proces after a few runs it becomes more easy.

The figures are self explaning,nice to see it worked out in a sheet.
And yes if you want to drink it soon or good neutral take wide cuts.

Shifu you wrote you cant tolerate tails,but my focus is more I cant tolerate heads,is your experiance that tails take longer to fade away ?
Do you judge the head  rather by smell or by burning mouth feeling?

About tails I have seen a movie from Romania a old couple distilling for the complete small village the plum brandy after doing the main cuts the woman fine tuned the brandy by adding small amounts of tails to the point she was satisfyed with the result,she worked with several small glasses and ones the formula was known the large badge was mixed.

Your right why ruin a good result by adding a bad yar to get a few glasses more.




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Offline Swedish Pride

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Re: cuts
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 03:24:37 PM »
Very conservative cuts YHB, I'm much greedier  than you.

I just did a run yesterday, 35-40 l of beer in the boiler, 70% malt -30% unmalted
Collected 16 jars 150-250ml per jar ( less 200ml fores)

jar 13 was stunning, 14 very good too, loads of maltiness there, think those two might be drunk white :D

I ran my 2 plater though, I know my pot would be different.

Also I toss the first jar some times teh first two, everything else goes to faints.
The faints go in to the next run unless I run something different, then it goes to the faints demijohns, I hope to turn the faint demis to neutral once i finish my packed column.

Next up wheat malt

Offline YHB

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Re: cuts
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2017, 03:44:55 PM »
Very conservative cuts YHB, I'm much greedier  than you.

I should have said that I wanted a clean rum to keep white, this morning I am doing another spirit run that I will be oaking and flavouring, I will try and be brave and widen the cuts :-\.

I have this fear of keeping some booze for three years on the premise that it will improve but dosnt. I would much rather be safe than sorry. ;)
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Offline Swedish Pride

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Re: cuts
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 05:08:15 PM »
yeah fair point, my early aging stock is at least a jar to headsy, tails I don't mind so I go deep in the tails and hope the oak looks after it in time.
I've started to take some hearts from each run as  sipping whiskey and age the rest.
Only problem with that is I need to run more to have more sipping stock.

Offline ShiFu

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Re: cuts
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 05:46:19 PM »
yeah fair point, my early aging stock is at least a jar to headsy, tails I don't mind so I go deep in the tails and hope the oak looks after it in time.
I've started to take some hearts from each run as  sipping whiskey and age the rest.
Only problem with that is I need to run more to have more sipping stock.

And THAT'S the rub.
The very best hearts get pulled out as quick to drink personal stuff for the "master distiller" and the rest is not as good.

I think we are all guilty of that. Who has not kept that GOLDEN jar aside?

You know it when you find it, it is perfect.
The jar ahead of it or behind it is not as perfect.

So let's be honest here, just this once. Do you grab that GOLDEN JAR that is so perfect and hide it aside or do you blend it into the Keepers Jug?

I will step forward and admit that the GOLDEN JAR is...
MINE!!! 

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Offline ketel3

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Re: cuts
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 06:15:46 PM »
Very interresting point of vieuws of your all  :),one thing is for shure we want to make the best.
earlyer I mentioned the old woman making the cuts of the plum brandy ,sorry I can not find the move BUT I found the artikel so please read how a woman can be the boss  :)
first link handeles only the dilution part the second link is the complete artikel enjoy.
NOTE: se added at the very last tails of only 10% and the effect is huge.

http://www.slivovice.org/perfecting-distillation.html
http://www.slivovice.org/

and ecuse it was Chech republik not Romania,Iám getting old :o
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Offline Eucyblues

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Re: cuts
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2017, 04:39:42 AM »

So let's be honest here, just this once. Do you grab that GOLDEN JAR that is so perfect and hide it aside

NUP

or do you blend it into the Keepers Jug?
 

YUP

But maybe I'm just slow on the uptake  ;)


Offline ShiFu

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Re: cuts
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2017, 05:41:38 AM »
When you have a dozen or more cut jars lined up ready for tasting, you have not come across that special jar?
I usually get at least one.
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Offline Swedish Pride

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Re: cuts
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2017, 02:44:36 PM »
I got two jars yesterday :)
happy enough with the yeald, just over 2l of aging stock at 65%, the two jars made me a 40% bottle to sip on and a liter and a bit of faints.

Best par is that I offered the boss-woman a sip from my precious new sipping stock and she made a horrible face and say get that away from me :D
Guess she's not in to malty goodness, wohooo!!!!  it's all mine


Offline Eucyblues

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Re: cuts
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2017, 06:09:36 AM »
When you have a dozen or more cut jars lined up ready for tasting, you have not come across that special jar?
I usually get at least one.

I do pick the differences, and the middle hearts can be very nice, but my mindset is that I'm looking at the blend being good overall, and the middle hearts play a key role in the blend - So I guess I don't even question leaving it in there.  However, i do often make 2 blends - with blend 1 being a tight cut, and blend 2 being at the taily end - then I expect to leave blend 2 for a long time on wood - most times it works well - sometimes not - if it stays taily I'll end up putting it through again with a new batch 

I'm a brown spirit man - not keen on white -- so I guess it may be different if you like white - not to say that I don't enjoy a sip of the best as it comes out  ;D       

Offline ShiFu

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Re: cuts
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2017, 06:30:14 AM »
... make 2 blends - with blend 1 being a tight cut, and blend 2 being at the taily end - then I expect to leave blend 2 for a long time on wood ...   

Brilliant!
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Offline Eucyblues

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Re: cuts
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2017, 01:43:01 PM »
On the above subject, for those of you who haven't read Arroyo's various treatises on Rum I commend them to you

In one of them he describes how to get both a heavy and a light rum from the same batch - I've tried it a couple of times - seems to work but it stretches the bounds of 'keep vs chuck'

PS - found it - see attachment - I have most/all of his stuff if anyone's interested

Offline YHB

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Re: cuts
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2017, 08:15:06 PM »
Trying to take everything on board I have just made the cuts of another spirit run.

As a base line I tried a sample of the rum I made a month ago and listed earlier, it is so smooth.

In fact it is too smooth, no bite. So for this run I decided to be brave and I added another jar of heads and another jar of tails.

I have ended up with 5 litres (ish) of 60% (ish). I have added 10 sticks of charred oak.

So now I have 4 litres of white rum that is drinkable now and the equivalent of 7 litres of golden rum aging. That will do me nicely.  :D :D :D

rum 2.jpgcuts
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Offline ketel3

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Re: cuts
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2017, 12:41:10 AM »
Yhb to smooth,yep its possible.

I think some wisky / whiskey makers leave small amounts of  heads in as they are afraid for the fact that people expect a strong drink with a bite,a smoot whisky is not for man but for  p u s s y s,so economical reasons, not to get a few liters more out of a batch,but taste palette.

Some distillery's make no cuts att all like Jack Daniels.
Its nice we can experiment  :)

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