Post by: ketel3 on August 26, 2016, 08:31:06 PM
A while ago I toasted my own wood,birch and oak,the oak is not the same type as in the Usa so it is european oak harvested it myself ;).
As I used it in my wisky ,made a big mistake right away as I used far to much and learned not to go over 20 grams/ at 1 liter ,the taste is total differant as from Jd chips or Jm beam chips.
The birch is someting special not every body's taste I think maybe used combined with oak is better.
First step was dry the wood in the oven on low heat say 80 dgrs 2.5 hours.
Next day a couple of hours on 220 dgrs rapped tinfoil around it , the upper bowl is the birch wood ,wen I opened the oven a lovely vanilla sense was there :)
Later I have put some of it in a jar with Sherry and some was charred,but I like the Usa wood more.
Did one of you any experiments with wood ?
Post by: Eucyblues on August 27, 2016, 12:06:31 PM
Brown spirits are my 'thing' so I'm right into wood - I've been toasting/charring/soaking/testing for some years now - I'll put some more detailed info up later - right now I'm supposed to be packing.....
Cheers
Post by: ketel3 on August 27, 2016, 12:59:35 PM
By the way I have barrels too.
Post by: YHB on December 26, 2016, 03:46:04 PM
Next day a couple of hours on 220 dgrs rapped tinfoil around it :)
I am OK up to this point :) "wrapped in tinfoil" is the bit I am not sure of. Is that wrapped and sealed or losely wrapped or wrapped with the foil pierced. :-\ :-\
Post by: ketel3 on December 26, 2016, 10:36:48 PM
By the way the wood soaked in sherry makes the taste more complex I use a small piece together with with JD chips or Jim Beam chips.
Next thing to do smoke some barley or rye with peat in my smoke oven.
Post by: Eucyblues on December 27, 2016, 02:56:40 AM
You can also wrap tightly with alfoil and place in a wok or barbecue - don't pierce it - the wrapping is to restrict oxygen and promote toasting instead of catching fire. Not as controlled as the oven but faster.
I use both commercial American and French oak 'dominoes' and my own American white oak (Quercus Alba) 'fingers' (I buy my oak from a local timber supplier - the last purchase was a 2 metre length of 200x25 so I have a fair supply)
I typically saw the 'fingers' about 100mm long x 25x15 - **ALONG** the grain
You should also experiment with charring - toast some at varying levels (see attachment), leave some untoasted. soak some in sherry/port then take some of each, arrange them on a piece of cement sheet and hit them with a gas burner draw the flame in and out (red to blue) and you'll see the effect of an oxidising vs reducing flame - give them a good char all over. The soaked ones will smell like cooked raisins. Charred oak will colour up the spirit faster than uncharred - also gives a filtering effect
Post by: law-of-ohms on December 27, 2016, 04:18:34 AM
Post by: Eucyblues on December 27, 2016, 05:13:01 AM
Here's a link to my 'oaking' folder (as distinct from my 'aging' folder) - feel free to download
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B3HbDPQKnW5LMk5RQngySngtVTQ?usp=sharing
EDIT: I guess we have this in the Resource Library
Post by: YHB on December 27, 2016, 10:50:52 AM
Thanks for sharing your research.
Post by: ketel3 on December 27, 2016, 09:22:25 PM
I will try again the local oak and use less.
Birch was not as good as I expected.
Please keep posting your tests ideas and toughts.
cheers K3
now a sip of bison grass vodka :)
Post by: YHB on December 30, 2016, 09:25:02 PM
DSC03423.JPG (74.21 kB. 350x238 - viewed 892 times.)
Post by: ketel3 on December 30, 2016, 09:45:05 PM
First Go - Not much in the olafactory department - perhaps hotter ? longer ?
What kinda wood is that,European our Usa wood ?
Maybe char a few with a gas tourch,we have such a nice hobby doint you think.
Right here it is 17,45 hours so a couple off hours left in the old year,my toughts are with Edwin.
Post by: YHB on December 30, 2016, 11:02:22 PM
What kinda wood is that,European our Usa wood ?
??? ??? I bought it from the local timber merchant, it just said "Oak"
I had a chat with the guy who runs the buisiness, he could not say what variety of oak it is or even where it came from it, but he bought it as offcuts from a saw mill in England and assumes it is European. He has had it in stock for a few years so it is nice and dry and relatively cheap. I paid £5.00 for a few pieces that has given me half a bucket full of sticks.
I cut it into blocks 1" x 1.1/2" x 3" long, split each of the blocks into six pieces. On average 10 pieces wieghs 80 grammes.
The picture is my pilot batch.
Post by: ketel3 on December 31, 2016, 12:21:33 AM
There are 2 main groups ,winter and summer oak.
Your supplyer had it in stock for a few years , that sounds good,taste will be softer.
I think heat up to above 220 dgrs celsius , will give you nice smell and better taste pallete,2 hours+
Drop a few into a little sherry,there is so much to try.
If you char some sticks rinse them with water before adding to your distilate.
My great mistake was to use to much wood the first time as I expected less taste as from usa wood,but this is not the case,the color of your distilate will be great.
I hope to learn from your experiments so please post your results,tests.
Post by: Eucyblues on December 31, 2016, 03:12:10 AM
Q petraea is the French white oak.
Look around for some Q. alba - American White Oak - You'll know it immediately if you can get them to cut a piece - smells strongly of bourbon when freshly cut (it's so good!!) - very fine grain.
You've not toasted them enough from the photos - as a guide see the attached photos of American Oak pieces -
This was taken from pieces used in an on-going oaking test - T1 is the 'oaky' range in the previous chart i posted, T2 is Sweet, T3 Vanillin - Unfortunately I think the samples may be wet from the look of paler ones - however the T3 sample equates to a 'Medium' toast and is the most common - needs to be a chocolate colour - note the grooves cut in the top of each so I know which toast level they are (mainly for the lighter ones and to differentiate when charred (charring only penetrates abput a mil or 2)
The bottles where photgraphed on 22/2/15 - You can see the varied colour achieved from each toast level in 3 weeks. The dark sample has an old charred stave piece - You can see the effect of the different toast levels and charring. The smell and taste from each toast level is markedly different and changes with time. I was surprised by the depth of colour from the old stave piece - It was a bigger piece and heavily charred though (was only added as an afterthought comparison - not part of the 'proper' trial).
The test continues...(I'm keeping notes) - On 22/2/15, I halved the samples of the T1/T2/T3 batches, halved the oak pieces and charred half of them. As they are today is shown in the last pic - The light is a bit lower than in the 2015 pic but you can still see the changes. Note that also, the T2 Char sample was heat teated for 5 days in July 2015 - You can see the darkening effect - It has a deeper colour than the T3 Char sample.
You can also see that most of the colour is extracted quite early in the process. So colouring up is only the very beginning of the aging process, and does not indicate maturity
I've also attached a photo of the SD medium toast dominoes as a colour guide - these would equate to T3
Happy New Year and happy toasting/soaking/charring !! ;D
Post by: YHB on January 05, 2017, 11:45:26 PM
A lot darker and a nicer aroma.
Second Go.JPG (63.83 kB. 350x225 - viewed 750 times.)I charred 8 pieces out of this batch and dropped it into my latest cornflakes.
After 5 days it has a wonderful colour, that just says "Drink Me"
5 days.JPG (124.2 kB. 350x439 - viewed 727 times.)I try to resist but I have never been very good at that kind of thing ::). The booze was good before I added the oak, in the short time only there is a significant change for the better :D.
I am one happy bunny and will report back in 3 months time, if I have any left by then.
Toodlepip
Post by: ketel3 on January 06, 2017, 12:51:10 AM
A succesfull experiment.
Post by: Swedish Pride on January 23, 2017, 04:45:58 PM
I started with oak chips from the HBS, quite nice
Then I realized I had an apple tree that fell over a year back so I went to work on that, did the whole toasting and charring bit, liked it too.
Then I found a cheap source of staves from used whiskey barrels (3€ per stave), used a chisel to get rid of all old char and paint and re-charred (did not toast as they were toasted originally), didn't care for it, turns out the oak had had sherry in it previously, I don't like whiskey finished in sherry casks.
Then I got a bag of JD chips as most are using them seem happy enough and have been using them in conjunction with the apple.
Will look at getting some french wood oak for my brandy next as apparently french oak is better for it, for not I have a few jd chips and apple wood in it.
Post by: ketel3 on January 23, 2017, 11:59:45 PM
I like others test and try outs.
Jim Beam JD are always good start, but own try en test is nice and developes your tasting palete.
My Birch was a nice experiment but a bit disapointing.
I have some apple wood laying around to leach out the heavy stuff hope it will be fine.
cheers K3
Post by: law-of-ohms on January 24, 2017, 04:32:01 AM
Use a blow torch
Post by: Eucyblues on January 24, 2017, 05:17:08 AM
Post by: Swedish Pride on January 24, 2017, 01:29:23 PM
Screw the oven,
Use a blow torch
the oven is for toasting, the blowtorch is for charring, i do both to new wood, only rechar old wood
Post by: ketel3 on February 25, 2017, 03:31:04 PM
See here some of my barrels.
The smallest is useless for us I gues 2.5 liters
the middel one is the first refurbished one 12 liters and recharred,problem was it was leaking and leaking I had to renew the sedge gras between the hatch and the barrel wall,and added a very small amount of flour egg white water filling ,result barrel ok,to reduce the angles share I waxed the outside exluding the hatches with bee wax.
This one is topped up with wine and grape extract distilate.
The largest one 22 liters I took it appart and found out very minimal burn spots so this one needed realy charring,this morning i did the job and took some photo's ,right now the barrel is closed again and slowly filled with water.
If you ever take a barrel appart add duck tape to one end in that way an accident falling the barrel appart when the rings fall of is avoided.
Further if you charr the barrel , protect de end part where the hatch should fit in,I used alu foil.
Post by: ketel3 on February 25, 2017, 03:32:54 PM
BBq time :) /thumbsUp
To much photo's Iam sorry
cheers k3
Post by: ShiFu on February 25, 2017, 03:43:42 PM
My preference for barrel size is 20 liters or bigger but smaller is OK too.
Post by: Swedish Pride on February 26, 2017, 01:48:35 PM
Post by: ketel3 on February 26, 2017, 10:02:51 PM
Yes 20 is about right,for a hobby distiller quit some work to top it up.
Post by: Eucyblues on February 27, 2017, 03:00:29 AM
I was given a 10 litre barrel.. uncharred.. Tap on the end, wooden bung at the waist
I decided to try and char it so I put some heads in, sloshed it around, emptied it, cradled it on a workbench and put the gas torch to it. It lit up quietly for a few moments, then short of drew itself down into the barrel and started a grumbling roar then a jet of blue flame at least half a metre high shot from the bunghole and the roar increased I in intensity.
The jet and the roar continued and the barrel started rocking around on the benchtop while I looked on in awe!
Slowly, the rocking subsided, the noise and jet lessened and the barrel sat there with a smug look.
So not being one to avoid a challenge, I said "I'll teach you", and did it AGAIN....
Well, Barry the barrel (we were on first name terms by then) became even even angrier and I was forced to move away.
I wasn't game to try for a third time.. I gave the match to Barry on points... But I had my char!!
Post by: ShiFu on February 27, 2017, 05:39:05 AM
"Yes doctor, Barry burned off my eyebrows".
Post by: ketel3 on February 27, 2017, 01:47:31 PM
Post by: Swedish Pride on February 27, 2017, 02:17:20 PM
At this point I'll relate another "lucky to be alive" story
I was given a 10 litre barrel.. uncharred.. Tap on the end, wooden bung at the waist
I decided to try and char it so I put some heads in, sloshed it around, emptied it, cradled it on a workbench and put the gas torch to it. It lit up quietly for a few moments, then short of drew itself down into the barrel and started a grumbling roar then a jet of blue flame at least half a metre high shot from the bunghole and the roar increased I in intensity.
The jet and the roar continued and the barrel started rocking around on the benchtop while I looked on in awe!
Slowly, the rocking subsided, the noise and jet lessened and the barrel sat there with a smug look.
So not being one to avoid a challenge, I said "I'll teach you", and did it AGAIN....
Well, Barry the barrel (we were on first name terms by then) became even even angrier and I was forced to move away.
I wasn't game to try for a third time.. I gave the match to Barry on points... But I had my char!!
I frigging love it, I need to get a hold of a Barry if only to see if I could replicate these results
Post by: Eucyblues on February 28, 2017, 03:11:03 AM
Eucy singing the charring blues and became barrel friends for life how was the booze ?
Barry hugged a batch of peppery bourbon for me and mellowed it very nicely. :)
He's now on his second batch.. Quietly humming away.. I wonder if I'll need to light up his life again at some stage? ;)
Post by: ShiFu on February 28, 2017, 03:32:34 AM
.. I wonder if I'll need to light up his life again at some stage? ;)
Take video!
Post by: ketel3 on February 28, 2017, 04:48:29 PM
Barry hugged a batch of peppery bourbon for me and mellowed it very nicely. :)
He's now on his second batch.. Quietly humming away.. I wonder if I'll need to light up his life again at some stage? ;)
Fine the peperoni was out of it how long was it in the Barry the barrel ?
Maybe after 3 or 4 uses give it a new char
And yeah Barry's next dance on video would be great +1 Shifu
Post by: Eucyblues on March 01, 2017, 04:13:55 AM
Fine the peperoni was out of it how long was it in the Barry the barrel ?
Maybe after 3 or 4 uses give it a new char
And yeah Barry's next dance on video would be great +1 Shifu
2 years, one month and five days... Surprisingly for a small barrel it didn't get over-oaked
Ok - I'll video the next episode - hopefully it won't be the last I make :o
Post by: ketel3 on April 20, 2017, 01:47:31 PM
2 years, one month and five days... Surprisingly for a small barrel it didn't get over-oaked
Ok - I'll video the next episode - hopefully it won't be the last I make :o
How large was the Angeles share ? ???
Post by: Swedish Pride on April 20, 2017, 02:13:58 PM
Any one got a good supplier in Europe for american oak barrels, used or new, 5-20l range
Post by: ShiFu on April 20, 2017, 03:16:00 PM
I know they can be had but it involves traveling to the other side of the country, bribing officials, paying a ransom, some human trafficking, donating blood plasma... plus a few things I'd not be proud to admit to doing.
So toasted oak in 10 to 15 liter glass jugs for me!
At least til I learn how to sell slaves and little children in exchange for oak barrels.
*** This was a joke and not meant to be taken seriously (unless you have a barrel to trade and need a small child ;D ;D )
Post by: Swedish Pride on April 20, 2017, 04:00:25 PM
Post by: ShiFu on April 20, 2017, 04:47:46 PM
give me a shout when you figger out the barrel to child trade ratio, I've 1 to 3 kids that are up for trade depending on the day
Haha, that made my day Swedish Pride!!
Actually, I have a few 30+ year old kids for sale. Not good for much but "for sale cheap" in case you are interested.
Edit: One child is a bit "unattractive" (ugly) and is offered at a steep discount.
Just trying to sweeten the deal ;D
Post by: ShiFu on April 20, 2017, 05:39:06 PM
I've had several in the past for distilling, all from the USA. All were expensive.
20L, 40L and 220L. All new oak and all were to be proud of.
No particular favorite as each was spectacular when it was filled with liqueur.
Post by: Swedish Pride on April 20, 2017, 06:02:06 PM
Post by: ShiFu on April 21, 2017, 07:51:38 AM
One keg was doing the stripping while the other was doing the spirit run.
It took all day, once a week, to add about 5 gallons of 65% to the barrel.
About 3 months.
Post by: Swedish Pride on April 21, 2017, 01:25:49 PM
Post by: ShiFu on April 21, 2017, 03:07:31 PM
In 2008 the economic crisis hit the US and everyone lost their jobs and houses.
I took early retirement and fled the US.
I sold all of the barrels and the booze to a few friends for about cost.
I was lucky. Was able to cash out before things got really bad.
Most of my friends were not so lucky.
Post by: YHB on August 28, 2017, 11:44:14 PM
12 staves from recycled sherry hogshead staves which are allegedly quarter sawn European white Oak.
They arrived today, very clean and a serious amount of wood.
Staves.jpg (292.84 kB. 350x466 - viewed 953 times.)
Post by: ketel3 on August 28, 2017, 11:53:41 PM
Mum bought me an early Xmas present.
12 staves from recycled sherry hogshead staves which are allegedly quarter sawn European white Oak.
They arrived today, very clean and a serious amount of wood.
Whaaw nice very nice what is your plan ? use as they are ,toast them char them looks all, fine to me :)
Post by: YHB on August 29, 2017, 08:18:08 PM
An hours work and the new staves cleaned up a treat. :D
23 Kilo of Oak for £35.00 - I am happy.
DSC03922.JPG (74.03 kB. 350x262 - viewed 857 times.) DSC03923.JPG (50.42 kB. 336x394 - viewed 629 times.)Now I need to find a pal with a power saw, to cut them into 150mm long planks. ::)
Post by: ketel3 on August 06, 2018, 04:33:37 PM
My barrels from Hungary give a way better taste.
Looking on you tube I noticed the Russions ad a extra treament to fresh wood,they cook it twice,and than it gets the oven treadment.,and or char.
Reason is that normaly the wood should stay in the open for some years to mellow out the hard tastes
and tannins,so maybe they do this treament to cover that.
See here below a movie ,one of them as there are a lot more posted.
some of them cook the wood into red wine.
I will give it a try,meanwhile I found Amerikan oak nearby.
Post by: Myles on August 08, 2018, 02:10:14 PM
Cognac and Bourbon both use new oak barrels. For Cognac these are NOT charred or toasted but for Bourbon they are.
For Cognac "new" oak means the first 3 fills. 1st fill might only be a few months due to excessive tannin leaching into the spirit, 2nd fill might be 2 years and 3rd fill even longer.
Those "new" barrels have most likely been seasoned for 2 to 3 years before they were coopered.
Boiling removes water soluble tannin so it makes sense for fresh harvested timber. I suspect though that I would use air seasoned timber if I could get it.
Post by: ketel3 on August 08, 2018, 02:19:08 PM
My wood was fresh ,so maybe it would be better with this treatment.
The guy who made my Hungarian barrels had a huge amount of old wood and the taste is signifgicant better :) as my wood.
Time to empty one barrel and put some of my rum in it /drinkingbeer
Post by: Myles on August 08, 2018, 02:41:09 PM
Commercial Vodka @ 40% with oak at just 15 gm per litre. I expect this to take a LONG time, but I was curious about oaking at drinking proof.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7zbuhozj4jveh5/low%20oak%20trial.png?raw=1)
On the left are new american oak staves and on the right used JD barrel staves.
Also a more conventional white rum @ 60% with new Appalachian oak at 30 gm per litre
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/l7i11ejjz9diesv/Rum%20App%20Oak%20MT.png?raw=1)
(I now have 3 of 20 litre barrels in storage waiting to be swelled and filled.)
Post by: ketel3 on August 08, 2018, 02:48:51 PM
I think use the wood twice next time even longer.
White oak is hard to get here :'(
Ever tought about nuke it (micro wave treatment )
By the way you live quit nice I see only country side on the first picture.
I'am in the middle of a town but have the advantage it is a area with lots of green and gardens.
Special treatment for your barrels before use ?